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Post by kepikimut on Jan 30, 2010 22:52:32 GMT 7
..setahu saya sih, kalo teman-teman masih inget dulu yang ditanyain pertama kali sama Papilio adalah klosii.. most wanted nepenthes hehehe... Rasanya tommy selain banyak di lapangan mungkin juga akses internet terbatas -saya juga gak tahu menahu sih- tapi betul juga soal perlunya disclaimer bahwa transaksi pribadi - apalagi tanpa memberitahukan pejabat yang berwenang ;D ;D - adalah resiko pribadi. Kita tidak bisa memberikan jaminan. Apalagi kalau kitakan gak tahu menahu cerita sebenarnya - dalam hal ini kita benar-benar gak bisa berpihak di manapun.. kecuali membantu klarifikasi (atau sebagai mediator).. meski dari kasus dan kejadian seperti ini harus kita antisipasi, karena kelihatannya banyak orang luar yang masuk kesini karena pengen cari neps yang langka dan unik.. Inilah resiko negara "gudang nepenthes".. ;P maaf, mau nanya. apa klosii sudah dibudidayakan di papua?? kenapa engga pernah mampir ke toko KTKI?? Mas Suska sudah punya hasil budidayanya?? atau anggota KTKI yang lain apa ada punya selain tommy? Tommy is a member of this forum and also member of KTKI. hasil searching googling wikipedia termasuk dalam Vulnerable, apa artinya dapat diperdagangkan secara bebas?? apa hanya member KTKI saja yang boleh memperjualbelikan? maaf, kalo tanyanya banyak. terima kasih
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Post by dontknowwhy on Jan 30, 2010 23:03:11 GMT 7
..setahu saya sih belum.. di SN ada, tapi rasanya masih belum dibudidayakan, kalau gak salah pertumbuhannya lambat dan agak rewel.. Kalau di toko KTKI sudah ada, pasti ludes diserbu hehehe... saya juga termasuk pengindent pertama.. Setahu saya kalau soal perdagangan, asal sudah merupakan hasil budidaya apalagi kalau sudah di perbanyak massal ..tidak ada masalah..siapapun boleh menjualnya dan - tentu saja - membelinya..
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Post by kepikimut on Jan 31, 2010 0:17:07 GMT 7
..setahu saya sih belum.. di SN ada, tapi rasanya masih belum dibudidayakan, kalau gak salah pertumbuhannya lambat dan agak rewel.. Kalau di toko KTKI sudah ada, pasti ludes diserbu hehehe... saya juga termasuk pengindent pertama.. Setahu saya kalau soal perdagangan, asal sudah merupakan hasil budidaya apalagi kalau sudah di perbanyak massal ..tidak ada masalah..siapapun boleh menjualnya dan - tentu saja - membelinya.. berarti yang dijual ma tommy hasil budidaya ya? hebat bener!!! suska aja masi kesulitan, yg ini sudah budidaya. perlu belajar nih!!
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Post by Antonio L on Jan 31, 2010 11:04:45 GMT 7
hmm ..pengalaman terakhir beli ama tommy ..batang utama nepe patah , stlh itu ga diganti dan ga mau dihubungi lagi ..ditelp / sms ga dibalas ..( HA3x'nya mbah surip ) .. gw beli insignis (2 pokok , 1 mati patah batang, 1 nya lagi mati mungkin krn kondisi drop ) bagi yg bisa hubungi Tomy titip salam aja dr gw untuk dia .. maksud sudah dibudidayakan oleh Tommy itu apa ya ? ..cabutan dr alam ..kmdn distek ? sy rasa ga mungkin lah dia bisa budidaya dr biji / kultur... @ sugeng : klosii masih langka , pastilah susah dapatnya , org jakarta aja kl bisa dapet udah syukur2 ..apalagi kl org luar jakarta ? (beruntung banget kl bisa dapet) .. kl ga ya nunggu bbrp thn lagi , sampe klossii udah bisa dibudidayakan.. jd harap sabar deh ..dan jangan menyalahkan siapa2
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Post by Antonio L on Jan 31, 2010 11:50:28 GMT 7
hi Mr. Louis .. i understand how u feel , cause i also has bad experience with Tommy too .. i buy nepenthes from Tommy, has arrive but broken, but i get no exchange plant/ money returned , then i lost contact with him too, no reply at all .. i think that Tommy don't have good intention..i dont want to make some one look awful but it's the FACT .. u can't trust someone who has dissapointed customer. i'm at Indonesia , but still have problem to contact Tommy.. i hope Tommy can read my message from this forum too..but he did't reply. i think u must consider ur risk too ...consider that have to travel/ expediton far distance , must be need long time to arrive .. (High Risk) ..maybe it can arrive at ur place, but the plant died ..it's not useful too ..then who will take responsible for it ? i suggest that if u want buy nepenthes ..u can go to Indonesia / Papua by yourself... that will minimize ur risk. also at Indonesia custom , ussually forbid sent plant without paper/ document (very difficult) u must complete it with permit .. But i hope that u can get good solution ..cause Moderator here want to help u ... i hope that everyone can take lesson from this experience
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Post by pakde on Jan 31, 2010 18:58:32 GMT 7
mas sugeng ... cak anton ... nyuwun sewu, pakde cuma berharap nyuwun siji kemawon (jarene sewu, kok minta siji sih) : slowdown, silent plissss ... (koyo gayane tukul). biarken diseleseiken dulu antara denbaguse louis dan bung tommy dulu. ben gak tambah ruwet ...
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Post by dontknowwhy on Jan 31, 2010 21:33:15 GMT 7
setuju Pakde..walaupun ini sedikit banyak menyangkut nama KTKI dan membernya - saya rasa kita tetap harus netral dan tidak memberikan komentar apapun yang bisa memberatkan salah satu pihak - dalam hal ini kita cukup sebagai mediator saja..
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Post by kepikimut on Jan 31, 2010 21:37:23 GMT 7
maap pakde. apa saya salah ya? saya disini cm penasaran, apa bener mas tommy bisa perbanyak klossi? katanya kalo hasil budidaya boleh diperdagangkan oleh siapa saja? kalo bener bisa budidaya kan hebat. saya ngiler pengen belajar. apa pada engga ada yang kepengen bisa memperbanyak tanaman yang dimana SN saja masih kesulitan memperbanyak?ato semua sudah punya panduan khusus kecuali saya??
kalo masalah antonio/anton mgkn dia menyampaikan uneg2 krn pernah bertransaksi dengan mas tommy.saya engga ikut2 ma masalah ini. saya engga pernah transaksi ma mas tommy juga.
saya bingung, apa saya engga netral?? padahal cuman pengen belajar. kalo penasaran untuk belajar skrg juga sudah dilarang.. terus gimana? maap.sekali lagi maap.
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Post by pakde on Jan 31, 2010 22:11:15 GMT 7
gak ada yang salah, mas sugeng .... maksud pakde penasarannya ditahan dulu, pengen belajarnya ditahan bentar deh. biar clear dulu inti pokok masalahnya .... kalo udah gak tahan, ya bisa di thread yang lain soal belajar budidaya klossii ..... diharapkan yang paling tepat nulis di bawah pakde ini nantinya ya : bung tommy aja deh ....
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Post by Papilio on Feb 2, 2010 3:10:52 GMT 7
Hello all, Ok Antonio, for sure it's a bad guy. I want to have my money And I hope the sape for you... Rajah, do you have some news about him please? Thanks for your help Friendly, Louis
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Post by Jax Sprout on Feb 8, 2010 7:42:24 GMT 7
Nah bener deh kata pak De... kalo bisa dimohon yg lain jgn menambah keruh suasana di thread ini.
Kita sudah lama kenal Tommy, mungkin kalo ada yg merasa punya pengalaman tidak enak dengan beliau bicara diluar thread ini aja.
Dealing dgn org luar (int'l) berbeda orang kita sendiri, krn mereka krg mengerti jg keadaan disini dibandingkan diluar sana. Terlebih disini bnyk kendala dalam pengiriman yg jarang nyampe dan urusan tetek bengek yg ujung2nya itu paket ngga nyampe. Pohon mati dsb.
Paket TIKI lokal pun sama juga, dulu saya jg pernah terima paket dari Papua walaupun waktu itu sudah dikemas sebagus dan sekeras apapun hasilnya kardus penyek dah bukan segi empat lagi bentuknya dah jajaran genjang dan bentuk ajaib lainnya. Alhasil ya dah tau deh isinya jadinya kek gimana kan... pengiriman paket dalam jarak jauh pasti ada kendala seperti ini bila si paket tidak dalam bentuk padat berisi serta keras.
Jadi disini bukannya saya memihak siapa2x... tapi biarlah urusan kedua beliau ini diselesaikan sampai selesai dan tuntas.
Bagaimana pak De, pak Rajah dan pak Imam? Apa ngga lebih baik disetorkan kembali aja? Dulu soalnya si Bux pernah bilang kalo kirim tanaman itu pasti direject. Makanya dia sama saya dari dulu tukeran kirim biji mulu.
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Post by nephilim on Feb 9, 2010 2:03:22 GMT 7
i have resisted not to add any thoughts into this thread. But i cant. I have traveled extensively with Tommy throughout Papua, and i find it very disrespectfull to have him out on a stake in this forum. For those who are new to nepenthes cultivation and to KTKI, i let you know that KTKI owes Tommy a great deal for having nepenthes from papua available to KTKI members. First of all he rediscovered the population for N.neoguinensis, and made it available again to Indonesian grower, the population is threatened by a nickle mine, and he, help halt the development in the area. Second, do you know how hard, and dangerous it is to travel in Papua? you sit behind you computer winging and complaining without ever realizing the difficulties of having this plant enter cultivation, yes, for you to buy and grow. here is the list of plants that Tommy have helped KTKI acquired, N.insignis biak for, N.insignis mainland form, N.mirabilis papua, N.ampularia papua, N.maxima papua, N.treubiana, N.neoguineensis, N.maxima Wamena, and not to mention various forms of other exotic plants from Papua, palm, hoyas, ferns ect.
Without the help of Tommy we wouldnt be able to have rare Papuan nepenthes species in cultivation, without his help neither I or Suska were able to reach where N.Klossii is growing, yes, the Klossii expedition, the first by Indonesian team were conducted with his help, it took 3 airplane ride, and the area where the plant grow is a RED area, do you know what that means? it means it is dangerous and you need permits to go there, we stayed with the local chief and were only allowed to stay for one night. The area where N.klossii grow is under threat with local development, as is the case in many vulnerable location in Indonesia, especially Papua.
as for the buyer, I have already told you, as you have asked me in the past to obtain plants for you that it is not possible to send plants over seas, and the price that you have paid him barely cover the cost of obtaining the plant. Do you know why N.klossii is rare and very expensive, because it grows in very difficult place! and its very hard to grow! we have tried seeds, TC to no avail, and even experience growers and nursery have failed to grow it. Thus Im under the impression that it is greed and senseless pride to that draws people to obtain rare plants.
i'm appalled with what i have read, the insults, the lack of courtesy and down right racist jokes! Stop the witch hunt, grow up as a forum, and start respecting those who have actually done something for the hobby, instead of just ranting and complaining.
good night
p.s go to google translate, i cant be bothered writing it again in Indonesian, as it is obvious who this message is intended to
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Post by Papilio on Feb 9, 2010 23:12:34 GMT 7
Hello Longor, Thanks to add this. But I'm not stupid, I know where klossi grow and if I bought it such expensive it's for this reason, of course Ok, Tommy help KIKI but he could scrammed someone? No, I sent money, I received nothing, he have to pay back. If no, it's a scrammer. Please, tell me if this concerns me. Sincerly, Louis
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Post by suska on Feb 10, 2010 11:13:37 GMT 7
Hi Louis, In the beginning I hope you can solve this problem your self with Tommy. But now it's already our problem. So I hope we all can learn from this. Here is my opinion: I don't see this as a scammer. It's only about an unsuccessful transaction because of lack knowledge and experience. (plus greed and ignorance). I see a lose lose transaction here. For sure you will lose money and Tommy will lose plants, from the beginning. You: You send the money but didn't received the plants. Tommy : received money, sent the plants but returned dry dead. Before you made a transaction, you should "guarantee" it will be successful. Or at least you ready with all the risk when its not. It's you that asked about the plants to sell to you here, so you should know better about the risk to send the plants to your country. Tommy as a seller should know it also (or probably he think you will handle all the risk). I don't know how you made the deal with Tommy. Have you both consider about all the risk? Consider all the risk (and you both hadn't do nothing for this), it's unfair for me when you ask Tommy to take all of the responsibility. But Tommy explanation is still needed. SO it's funny when you wrote: But I'm not stupid, I know where klossi grow and if I bought it such expensive it's for this reason, of course Are you really not stupid? Do you really know where it's grow? Is it expensive? Sorry, my answer is the opposite of your answer. For send plants legally to your country, at least you need : - Exploration permit from some government offices here, also some local government office. - Taking sample permit, "moving" sample permit, etc. After you have the plants legally, then you need : export permit, CITES permit and phytosanitary certificate. And you also will need to obtain import permit and CITES permit from your country. Have you and Tommy done all this? We are in KTKI now in process to obtain all of this legal permit. But if you want it "illegally" (but I'm not suggesting you to do this!), You should take it and bring it your self. It's is the "savest" way to ensure the plants still alive till your home. You can't trust anybody or any cargo to bring the plants save to you. The custom check the cargo, unless you "know" someone there. In both country. Yes, sometime the don't check, but can you guarantee? So if you don't know all of this (legal and illegal ways), you are still stupid. If you want to take it your self illegally, of course you can. You said you know where it's grow. Oh yeah, you can make a circle in a map like SMPh did and go there. Do you exactly know where it's grow? Do you know how to go there? Especially without help from local people (that does't even know if this kind of plants exist in their neighborhood)? You can just spend a lot of money and found nothing but trouble. (maybe you can ask Stew how much money he spent and how much problem he got there) Is 300 euro expensive for that? Even 2000 euro is still to cheap for me for that plants to buy. But I can give it free to a person that can ensure the plants grow well in his/her place, after the plants arrive safely. I'm sorry for you and Tommy (and the dead plants), but I hope we, especially you and Tommy, can learn from this. Keep good growing! ma_suska
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Post by opi on Feb 10, 2010 11:49:50 GMT 7
setuju 100% buat mas suska. mas suska memang bijaksana
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